The true meaning of value
Value can mean many different things depending on its context. In this episode, Jenn explores what value means in terms of your time and energy. Before you can ever find out what to charge for your services, you need to know your needs.
AUDIO EPISODE
This version is different from the video version
TRANSCRIPT
Samantha Morgan: Hi, everybody. Welcome back. We're at episode four. Can you believe this is four already episodes of Thrive Talk? Whoop whoop. I am Samantha Morgan, the producer slash...
Jenn Ocken: Badass?
Samantha Morgan: Okay, I'll take badass. Producer/badass of this here program.
Jenn Ocken: Program.
Samantha Morgan: This program. Last time we talked about, we started the conversation about time and time management and how important that is for establishing your vision and goals. Today we're going to extend that conversation. Jenn Ocken. Two N's Ocken. What are we talking about today on time?
Jenn Ocken: We do talk about a lot about time management out there in the solopreneur realm of things when you're going and doing things on your own and how much value we place on ourselves. If we spend a lot of time and work hard on something, it's more valuable and we touched last time that it's not always the case. I've also used time and money as good excuses to hold me back from things. I don't have enough time, so I've said no to things because I felt overwhelmed. We also touched on last time the journaling and how that can kind of center us and different ways of meditating can center us on all of that. So the idea of making space for both your values and purpose and spending time on that so that we aren't spending our time doing things because we're trying to find and seek out value and worth. If we make a space for our values and our purpose and we cultivate and harness that, the time we spend on things is going to be valuable no matter what it is we're doing. I just don't have enough time. I don't have enough money to do it. That has kept me, held me back from doing a lot of creative things in my lifetime and-
Samantha Morgan: So many of us, yes.
Jenn Ocken: It's because by saying yes to it, it didn't fit into well, it's not valued enough. If I said yes to, for example, going on a trip where I might not be making money, but I might be taking pictures of something very, very, very cool. And I've said no to some things that could have easily been a part of a project that I have called Left Is is where I didn't have time to go and photograph an abandoned building.
Samantha Morgan: Because nobody's paying for you to a photograph of abandoned building.
Jenn Ocken: Because, right. But being there and doing it would've cultivated some creativity.
Samantha Morgan: Yeah.
Jenn Ocken: I would've networked with the person there that was taking me around, that kind of thing. So it was kind of a kick myself because it went along with my values, but it didn't go along with making money or having the time to do it.
Samantha Morgan: What's so funny is within our school system, they have really devalued creativity and the arts and arts programs because when they're doing the numbers, they got to get X, Y, and Z taken care of. But there have been so many studies to show that exercising the creative brain helps you in all areas of study, not just in painting like you.
Jenn Ocken: Right.
Samantha Morgan: The learning that skill enhances other areas of your body.
Jenn Ocken: One of the thing that I feel really came out during the 2020 pandemic is how valuable creative minds and creative jobs and creatives. The thing I realize is that's something you're never going to computerize. You're never going to... The mechanics of being creative is all from within. I mean, yeah, we have a 3D printer and we have that kind of stuff. Still take the manipulation of the hands-on mind.
Samantha Morgan: Somebody had to create the 3D printer though.
Jenn Ocken: Right.
Samantha Morgan: So somebody had to get creative enough to want to try to create-
Jenn Ocken: Absolutely.
Samantha Morgan: ... and to build that.
Jenn Ocken: And it's just like my cameras. Somebody holding the camera and pointing it with the exact same camera and lens is going to take a different picture than I am with the same setup. And this is one thing we kind of talked about is before this podcast recording is I have this anxiety of am I providing good enough information for people out there and your anxiety is are going to... And I thought this was awesome feedback. Are you going to provide what I need? So the same thing doesn't happen that happened in 2018 where I got burned out from doing a podcast. I think I just only did four episodes and here we are on the fourth-
Samantha Morgan: Oh really? Wow.
Jenn Ocken: ... episode. By doing this podcast, I'm stepping away, but I'm still doing something creative and it's building my creativity. It's building on the ability to be able to take great pictures because I've am not completely obsessed and focused on nothing but my JOP or the angst of trying to get deadlines done. It's such a mindset thing.
Samantha Morgan: Yeah. You said JOP, just to make clear-
Jenn Ocken: Oh thank you.
Samantha Morgan: ... for the people who may not know what that means, she means Jenn Ocken Photography.
Jenn Ocken: Yes.
Samantha Morgan: ... is JOP and not JOB, which is what it kind of seemed like you might have been saying. My JOB, same thing.
Jenn Ocken: JOP is my JOB.
Samantha Morgan: Is her JOB, so...
Jenn Ocken: It is my JOB, and getting to a point where I've always been a photographer as my career choice. And I can remember being a young business owner and just flowing through the anxiety and I realized I was over promising, so I made it perceived that I was working hard, which gave me more value.
Samantha Morgan: Let's dig into that a little bit. Please. Let me grab a spoon because we are about to dig on into that.
Jenn Ocken: I know, right?
Samantha Morgan: Yeah, so over promising. I think that is really big because I know that I am guilty of it. I think we are probably all guilty of it. Even if you're not an entrepreneur, if you're-
Jenn Ocken: Oh yeah.
Samantha Morgan: ... even you're working at your regular...
Jenn Ocken: Well, why do you think-
Samantha Morgan: Sorry, not regular. But if you are working at a more-
Jenn Ocken: Yeah.
Samantha Morgan: ... standard 40 hour a week type job.
Jenn Ocken: 9:00 to 5:00.
Samantha Morgan: Yeah.
Jenn Ocken: Structure.
Samantha Morgan: Yeah. Over promising. Let's talk about that.
Jenn Ocken: Well, why do you think that we do overpromise?
Samantha Morgan: For me, I think it is a result of just not being able to fully value what things are worth because I think a lot of the times, value is just a crazy thing to think about in general. I mean, what-
Jenn Ocken: Well value is so much more than just money.
Samantha Morgan: Money, right.
Jenn Ocken: Your time, your energy, your health.
Samantha Morgan: And that's-
Jenn Ocken: Your family. That's all values.
Samantha Morgan: That's what you've been really helping me to shift my mindset in thinking of that in terms of being more than just money, because I tend to think of things in terms of just money-
Jenn Ocken: Exchange.
Samantha Morgan: ... and then you don't really put a full value on it.
Jenn Ocken: Yeah, I give you this amount of time and I produce this and it's worth this.
Samantha Morgan: Right.
Jenn Ocken: Only that number coming back to you, what you're getting paid for or with energy or with monetary value, that has to take into consideration all the other things that you hold valuable.
Samantha Morgan: Yeah.
Jenn Ocken: Am I taking away from family time? Am I taking away from time that I need for self-care or self-
Samantha Morgan: That is not the American way. It's all money. That's it.
Jenn Ocken: Yes.
Samantha Morgan: That's all we think about.
Jenn Ocken: And it's saying yes is that need for validation, is that need for approval. Saying yes to something no matter-
Samantha Morgan: What the circumstances.
Jenn Ocken: For me, I was undercutting myself, my time, and my energy-
Samantha Morgan: Yeah.
Jenn Ocken: ... and I realized very quickly that I wasn't going to be sustainable because was only taking in factor that I had to spend money on the electric. I had to spend money on the office rent. I had to spend money on material, but I wasn't putting, or maybe just a little bit more for the time and energy and experience that I was bringing to the table as being a photographer or being a graphic designer or something like that. And you can rate your value on so many levels, but the fact of the matter is you have to check in and ask yourself, "Am I a person that needs or deserves more for what I'm doing?" And sometimes your clients will tell you, which is really nice. I think I've told you.
Samantha Morgan: She's literally, "You're not charging me enough money." And I'm like, "I will happily charge you more money." But actually I wouldn't because it's still hard to do. Even when they tell you, "You need to be charging me more." You're just like, "No, it's fine."
Jenn Ocken: It's so difficult. It's a compliment. It's a reflection on your own self value and your own self-worth, which is why doing that self-care is so important. And I got to give it to the younger generation. They are a little bit more in tune with how valuable they are.
Samantha Morgan: Don't you dare give that to them. We gave that to them. Stop it. They just got it earlier than us, the message. We had to figure it out though.
Jenn Ocken: Yeah, you're right. Yes, you're right.
Samantha Morgan: But they are taking the lessons, yes.
Jenn Ocken: They are taking them and running with them, and I got to tell you, it comes across as a bunch of different arrogance or they don't really know. They have to work harder. They have to prove themself. No, they don't. No. I encourage people to do whatever it takes to step into your own power and to know your worth and know your value because you are the only person accountable for yourself. You're the only person that is... You are the only person you're going to be with your entire life.
Samantha Morgan: Yeah. What's really funny is to talk about the gym some more because we do that quite a bit.
Jenn Ocken: High five to us.
Samantha Morgan: One day we were having a conversation at the gym and we were talking about the podcast and we were talking about pricing, and you mentioned that that was something you wanted to do last. And I thought to myself, "But that's the thing everybody wants to know." I think in this conversation right now, it just clicked into my head as to why pricing is last, and let me run this by you and see if this makes sense. But all of the things that we've talked about so far, you really cannot start defining your pricing until you've done this work that you've talked about so far. So I mean, the very first thing you mentioned was your team, defining your team. And you did that so that people would know, this isn't just me. There's lots of people. Don't just look at what somebody else who's already established is doing and set that as your benchmark because you're going to fail right there if you do. So that's step one. Don't compare yourself to everybody else. And then each step that we've taken since then has really been about defining who you are, what your goals are, what your boundaries are, and all these things, because you can't define your price and your value until you've done all that work.
Jenn Ocken: Yeah, you have to believe it in yourself.
Samantha Morgan: Right.
Jenn Ocken: And these lean in exercises that are inspiring this first season is very much guiding you through the purpose of why you're doing what you're doing so that you bring your full value potential to the plate for yourself.
Samantha Morgan: Yeah.
Jenn Ocken: Once you do that, it's going to spread to everybody else.
Samantha Morgan: Oh my gosh.
Jenn Ocken: Right?
Samantha Morgan: Clicked. Clicked in my head. Just went, "Oh, I get it now."
Jenn Ocken: We have to be in our own right very grateful for who we are and what we can bring to the table, especially when we enjoy doing it or we enjoy being of service to people. I mean, being of service to somebody is probably one of the most rewarding things you can ever do. So when you're in a job that's providing a service just because it's wonderful and rewarding and it's full of purpose and you're inspiring other people to do something doesn't mean, and you love this, doesn't mean that you shouldn't be paid for it because you're enjoying it so much. You actually need to be being paid more for it.
Samantha Morgan: To go back to this generation, I am so stoked about this revolution that's happening within the working force where people are starting to say, "No, no, no. I'm worth more than that."
Jenn Ocken: The one thing when I moved from Chicago and started my business in Baton Rouge as a photographer, I didn't do market research because I wanted to be in competition with people. I didn't want to bottom feed the other photographers that were on the same level as I was. We are the reason, I should say, that sets the industry standard. As cost of living goes up, as things evolve, as we become better at our craft. There's all sorts of little scenarios that affect it. We all have to be rising up. That's one of the reasons why I'm very okay with my second shooters and my mentors using their pictures that they photograph under my name in their portfolios and stuff. They're there to build their confidence and build, and what that's going to do, that's going to keep them from body feeding and getting jobs because of their price. Instead, they're getting jobs because of their expertise-
Samantha Morgan: Their value.
Jenn Ocken: Their value.
Samantha Morgan: Yeah, yeah.
Jenn Ocken: And I'm helping support raise value. That's what I'm doing with Thrive Talk. I want to help support and raise your value and how you feel about yourself, because everybody's going to win. You're going to produce better quality products, services, people are going to believe and find more value in you. That's where you got to make the space. Do the work that is going to bring confidence and empower yourself. I'm here to inspire and empower other people, but at the end of the day, the only person that is really responsible for it is you. And I can help guide you through it. In fact, we can talk about different ways to do what works best for you.
Samantha Morgan: And to bring it all the way back around to where we started this conversation off even before we started the conversation, you're thinking about your anxiety of, "Am I giving people what they need?" I'm thinking about my anxiety of, "Am I giving Jenn what she needs?" And at the end of the day, neither one of us can define that because what people are going to get from this is going to be based on their own unique individual experience. What you're going to get out of this is not something that I can sit there and go, "Do you feel satisfied?" I can't give you a check sheet and make you feel like you've gotten what you needed to get. All we can do is go through the process and see what happens.
Jenn Ocken: And see what happens.
Samantha Morgan: Yeah.
Jenn Ocken: And I'm going to tell you right now, my mindset after being in a fluid, more focused flow of life and creatively, choosing to be more intentional about my purpose and my values and allowing those as guideposts, which is what I teach in the lean in exercises specifically, that no matter, Sam, because I'm in a totally different mindset than I was in 2018 when I first started a podcast. No matter what you give to me, what you give to me is exactly what I need. And whatever we experience, whatever feedback you give us, we are going to take that and we are going to utilize it, and we're going to make something better. We're always going to be evolving and growing better. I'm just not going to have it any other way, and I want to teach other people how to be in that space for themselves.
Samantha Morgan: I love it. You said I'm the badass, but actually my dear, you're the badass.
Jenn Ocken: I think we kind of both make it happen, captain.
Samantha Morgan: Always organic, always free flowing. Keep-
Jenn Ocken: Bring it on.
Samantha Morgan: Keep it natural.
Jenn Ocken: Real.
Samantha Morgan: Real, real. And if you have enjoyed all of the playtime with the dogs and great, and if you didn't, well then you're in the wrong place.
Jenn Ocken: I know, right? We just cannot have them. They're pretty grounding in all their annoyance.
Samantha Morgan: Yeah. If you're a cat person, I'm so sorry.
Jenn Ocken: No.
Samantha Morgan: We have no cats here.
Jenn Ocken: We don't.
Samantha Morgan: No. All right. Miss double N Ocken, that is my new nickname for you.
Jenn Ocken: Double N.
Samantha Morgan: Double N Ocken. I have really enjoyed our chat today. Thank you so much for being you, the wonderful you that you are.
Jenn Ocken: Oh, thanks Sam. I really appreciate the way that you hone in on what it is we're talking about. You really make it a lot more organic than I could ever do this just by myself.
Samantha Morgan: Aw, thanks so much.
Jenn Ocken: We're a good team.
Samantha Morgan: I appreciate it. We are. And have a wonderful day.
Jenn Ocken: Yep. Peace people.
